True champions aren’t just made on the court—they’re built through attitude, resilience, and leadership. In this episode, basketball legend Darnell Hillman shares his incredible journey from the Army to the ABA and NBA, where he earned the nickname “Dr. Dunk.” Hillman dives into the pivotal moments that shaped his outlook, including lessons from his time with legendary track athletes at San Jose State, his military service, and playing for the Indiana Pacers during their championship years. Hillman also reflects on the importance of attitude, hard work, and team unity in building a successful and fulfilling life. Tune in for stories of perseverance, leadership, and the power of a winning mindset.
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Attitude Of A Champion: On Winning On And Off The Court With NBA Champ, Darnell Hillman
Welcome to the GAP, the Get Attitude Podcast, bridging the gap from who you are to who you wish to become, and from where you are to where you want to go. My name is Glenn Bill, founder of the University of Attitude, keynote speaker, and author of the international best-selling book, The ABCs of Attitude. I’ve been so fortunate to help tens of thousands of people. Maybe it’s 100,000 people at this point. We know that attitude is the secret formula to success, not only in your life but also in your business. This show will help you get yours, so let’s get some.
I want to welcome everybody to the Get Attitude Podcast. Please remember to subscribe, like us, follow us, rate, and review us. If you love this episode, which I’m sure you will, download that link. If you have pro basketball fans in your sphere, send them this link because we have one of my favorite basketball players ever.
The gentleman’s name is Mr. Darnell Hillman also known as Dr. Dunk. I’m not sure if they coined him the Doctor before Dr. J., but he was so much prettier. His afro was maybe a little bit bigger than Dr. J’s but he’s going to tell us. He was the NBA’s first dunk champion and was crowned with that a few years back. Enough about me talking. Let’s bring the one and only legend, Darnell Hillman from the Indiana Pacers in the NBA. Welcome, Darnell, to Get Attitude Podcast.
Thank you. I appreciate the invitation.
Dr. Dunk On Defining Attitude And Its Role In Success
We always love to start our show with one pretty simple question. How do you define attitude?
I think for myself, your attitude can determine your success in life and whatever you want to accomplish. When I get up in the morning, I go to the bathroom, look in the mirror, and ask myself, “Is my attitude positive? Is it negative? If it’s negative, that’s going to hamper a lot of your success because you’re walking around with that chip on your shoulder. You have to take these negative things and make them work for you. That begins with your attitude and being able to determine your success.
I like that. Let me ask you this. When you look back on your life, who do you think affected your attitude? Who is your first attitude coach when you look back on things?
Darnell Hillman’s Journey From College To The Army
I have to go all the way back to my college days. I’m a freshman at San Jose State. I’m on the high jump team. All my track team are John Carlos, Tommy Smith, and Lee Evans. He’s 68. Winners of the Olympics. In my freshman year, Carlos and Smith are coming around the track. I’m in the high jump pit. I’m working on changing, my jumping style. Carlos veers off the track, runs up to me, and grabs me by my lapel. He’s a junior and I’m a freshman.
He’s about 6’4” about 235 to 240. I’m 6’ 9”, maybe 210. I’m wrestling trying to get out of his grip. Why are you down here bothering me in my high jump pit when I’m not out there on the track interrupting you? I finally get out of his grip. I stepped back and I sized him up. I looked him up and down and I thought, “You’re a freshman. Do you think you could take a junior?” and then it dawned on me. This is a world record holder. He’s a junior. You’re a nobody. Maybe you need to listen to what this guy has to say.
I humbly stepped back a little further and said, “Mr. Carlos, what would you like for me to do?” I had the bar set at 6 feet. He said, “You ready this bar to 7 feet. That’s what you practice every day. If I catch this bar below that at any time, I’ll come back down in this pit and beat your butt all over this field.” Of course, I raise the bar to 7 feet. All week long man, I’m kicking this bar because I’m having a problem getting my trail leg over it and I’ve got a track coming up Saturday and not understanding how I was going to be able to perform the one thing that happened on Saturday that I did not have throughout the week. It’s called adrenaline.
When the bar went up to 7 feet, I cleared it as quickly as I hit the mat. I’m up now looking all over the field for John Carlos to run and tell him, “I understand what you’ve done. Thank you so much.” It was all about. You set your goal high. Not so high that you can reach him, but high enough that you have to work for them.
If you achieve that, then you set another goal and continue to do that. All of a sudden, that becomes a way of life for you. That becomes a way of every day and approaching things and being successful and taking the positive and doing something positive with it, and taking the negative and flipping it to a positive.
I thank Mr. Carlos for that. Whenever I talk to him today, I tell him that this is one of the stories that I tell all the young kids, what he did for me in doing that. That impacted and helped me a great deal. Right after that, at the start of my junior year at San Jose, instead of getting to continue to play ball, I got drafted into the Army.
I didn’t know that.
I did two years of Army basketball. I came out of the service at the same time that my collegiate class was graduating. I was very fortunate that I came into the ABA draft and NBA draft and was able to continue playing basketball. Had not it been for the attitude thing because when I came out of the service, I was mad and angry that they took me away from college. At that time San Jose was ranked number three for party schools in the nation. I’m missing all of this, but I was fortunate.
When I came out, the attitude that I had got to do what was best for me. The Pacers had drafted me first. I came out and met with them. I found out that the NBA’s draft is going to be about 2 or 3 weeks behind the ABA’s draft. I asked the Pacers if they would wait until the NBA draft. The gentleman that they were, they said, “Sure, not a problem.” I get drafted by the NBA first-round number eight behind Sydney Wicks and Curtis Rowe.
Transitioning To Professional Basketball
I go meet with the Warriors and told them, “Match the contract the Pacers had given me and I’ll probably sign with you guys because California was home for me.” They said, “Give us 24 hours and we’ll be back in touch. 36 hours went by. I called my adviser and said, “Let’s get on the plane and let’s come to Indy.” The best decision I made because we got back-to-back championships.
You are a rookie on the championship team then.
Yes.
No kidding. I never knew that one. Let me backtrack a little bit. When you were a freshman, what year was that at San Jose State? Was that ‘66 or ‘68?
‘67.
John Carlos and those gentlemen were the folks who raised their hands after winning the gold. Correct?
Correct. All this love, John Carlos, Tommy Smith, and Lee Evans.
All three and they all ran at the San Jose State.
Correct. Our track team won the NCAA back-to-back. We had so many sprinters who wanted to run the 100, the 200, and the relay race. Every Friday we’d have to have a runoff to see who qualified would be able to run tomorrow, In the 100 alone, we had six sprinters that were within two, three, tenths of the world record. That was an example of that.
I saw Tommy Smith at that time in the 100-yard dash. I believe the time was 9-1. Tommy Smith was in sweats. They put a harness on him because he was terrible at takeoff and coming out of the block. They put the harness on him and had him take off while the coach was holding him back. They took the harness off and they set him up against Jerry Winters and John Carlos. Tommy ran at 8-9. He broke the world record but because it’s not official, they won’t post that.
I was seeing those kinds of things there. San Jose was a good start for me. Had not it been for my attitude when I came out of the Army, I don’t know if I’d be able to make it because I had to put that behind me and say, “You got that behind you. Let’s go on and find out what’s in store for me next.”
I love it and I’m going to get there but a couple of things. Do you remember the day that they stood there with their hands up? What impact did that have on you? Do you remember where you were and how it made you feel about solidarity?
They were in Mexico for the Olympics that year. If I’m not mistaken, I did not qualify so I couldn’t go. I was still in San Jose. By the time they got back, I found out I was going into the Army.
You were watching it on TV or something. You saw it. Did it make you feel any different? You had to be so proud that those were your teammates for what they were standing for and what they accomplished.
Very much so. We had a human by the name of Harry Edwards. If you look him up, you’ll realize Harry was very instrumental in a lot of the black student and athlete movements at that time. Harry was the one who got all that unification and got everybody all on the same page together with this.
I like it it. Tough times for sure. I want to hit on the military service. You were drafted you were told you were going.
How I got drafted was the San Jose State Basketball team played the number two-ranked school in the nation that year. Santa Clara University was right behind UCLA and we beat them. On that team were twins, the Ogden brothers. Their father was the head of the California Draft Board. Right after the game, he put his finger right at me and said, “My sons are not going to play against you.” That’s how I got drafted into the Army.
I went in front of the draft board. At that time, they had something declared, hardship for the one and only son in the family. You keep the name when in front of the draft board for that. The Oakland Raiders had kept sixteen of their first-round draft picks out. They had contacts at the draft board. They contacted the Oakland Raiders and set up the contact for me. I was supposed to go in there and take the physical. They find something wrong and I’d be out.
I walked in and found my contact. He was nervous as a long-tailed cat in a room full of rocking chairs. They were watching and waiting for me. You go in, you take your physical, and when you come out is your chance to go in front of this committee. Usually, they keep you out of the room for maybe a minute and a half to two minutes while they make their decision. They sent me out of the room and called me back in there in 30 seconds. The guy pointed his finger right at me and said, “You are going into the service.”
I’d come from Sacramento, California down to Oakland to take the physical. Two hundred of us were on the buses, and 199 of them got a chance to get back on the bus and go to Sacramento. They sent me directly to the airport.
You gotta be kidding me.
I wish I were. We call the people who listen to this podcast GAPers. I want to let you know if you’ve ever had a day or a hard day like that. Darnell, when we talk about attitude though, that’s some bad messed up stuff that happened to you. We have people listening that feel they’re being mistreated or things aren’t going their way and that they’re being told to do things they don’t want to do. What was your attitude? When you knew you got screwed like that, how did you get your mind right to prevail and to continue forward?
When you go into the military, everything that you had behind you goes out the window. Your drill sergeant becomes your mom, your dad, and everything to you. I had a drill sergeant who had been to Vietnam six times. When he came out, we were in boot camp. He’s training us and teaching us. He says, if I have to go to war with any of you guys, you guys are coming back. You guys are going to come back in body bags because none of you are listening. I realized how serious this is, about being able to stay alive.
[bctt tweet=”When you go into the military, everything that you had behind you goes out the window.” via=”no”]
I was going through boot camp. When boot camp is done, you go through what’s called AIT, Advanced Infantry Training. I was supposed to go to Signal Corps and become a radio operator at 6’ 9” and when you get into combat, the first one they take out is the radio, and then your first lieutenant. If you’re in a combat situation, you have about nine seconds to stay alive for the first gunshot that you hear. I’m thinking about all of this and it’s like, “I need to pay attention to what this guy’s teaching me, just in case this happens.”
I was fortunate that after basic training, my Army coach, saw my name on the list and he had my orders change. I grew up in San Francisco. We all know that when you go into the military, you never go back to your home to be stationed. You’re always somewhere else across the planet. I got stationed at Presidio, San Francisco, in my backyard. I grew up there. I spent two years at Presidio, San Francisco but playing on the all Army team and the Armed Forces team. I got to travel around the world. I’ve been to thirteen third-world countries playing ball and representing the country.
You wonder how I was able to keep my attitude in check. Kenny Washington played for UCLA, 1 to 65, I believe in the UCLA NCAA championship. Garfield Smith played for Kentucky. Garfield was 6’ 8” about 260. He averaged 19 rebounds a game. Those two took me under their wings and then after my first year in the service, a new teammate came to us. We all know who Coach K is. He was on our team.
He played with Garfield.
If you could contact him, he’ll tell you about it. I held this firstborn in the palm of my hand.
Do you get to talk to him much anymore?
I do. Whenever they come to town for the tournaments, Duke is coming while I work for the Pacers I believe 3 or 4 times. Each time, I was able to get down there and talk with him and talk to some of his ball players.
That’s so fantastic. Was he any good?
He’s automatic from 12 feet anywhere on the floor. If you gave him a chance to shoot that call for the shot, he’s going to knock it down. He came in and I can’t tell this about Coach Knight. Coach Knight would have been like a nursery school and kindergarten kid compared to our Army coach. Our Army coach was tough. His name was Hal Fischer. Look him up. He won the all-Army 13 times, 11 in a row, and then he won for them in the armed services equally as well. We played the Russians, Brazil, Yugoslavia, and France. Whoever they put out there in front of us, we had them run out of the hills.
You were a champion both those years then.
Yes.
The Attitude Of A True Champion
Did Coach Fisher teach you how to be a champion? You said to me, maybe it was off the air, “I was never worried about being all pro because I was worried about winning championships.” Where do you think that came from? That’s a real team concept. That’s a real team attitude. What drove you to win championships? What made it so seductive for you?
I think being on the back-to-back championships NCAA at college with Thomas Smith, John Carlos, and the guys, that get into your system. You want to have that same feeling again because there’s team unity there. Nobody on the outside understands what sacrifices we as a team make. You get to be at the very top of the pinnacle. Now you become the target of everybody else who wanted to get there.
Champion: Nobody on the outside understands what sacrifices we as a team make. You get to be at the very top of the pinnacle. Now you become the target of everybody else who wants to get there.
Once we got on top, now we’ve got to all these other places and people want to be where we are, and that’s stuck with me. Playing basketball in the Army was the same thing. We’re just winning ballgames and winning different tournaments around the world. When I came out of the service, I still had that in me, and seeing the Pacers in my first year coming here, they had already won a championship. Seeing the nucleus of who they had Freddie Lewis, Billy Keller, Roger Brown, Mel Daniels, and Bob Netolicky. George McGinnis and I came in as rookie the same year. We became a part of the nucleus and became the Magnificent Seven, and we went on to win back-to-back championships.
How in the world did they get you and George in the same draft? Was he a second-rounder? What happened?
George signed hardship. I believe it was the first year that they started doing the hardships. George came from IU and signed with the Patriots out of hardship. The Pacer’s first draft pick didn’t occur in the second round. That’s when I was chosen. George and I were the two rookies that signed no-cut contracts. We were able to be on the team with Mel and the guys. What a heaven it was.
We’re going to get to the Pacers but I’m going to dig in for one more question about your history because it’s important. I believe attitude is always given to us. Most people will say from our parents, my mother, and my father. Oftentimes, we find that real talent and real attitude skip a generation. We always like to ask the good stories about Mom and Dad. Did you know any of your four grandparents? Did you have a special relationship with one that impacted your attitude when you think about your grandparents?
My grandmother on my mom’s side was very quiet and very stoic. When she spoke, everybody listened. You didn’t question her at all because she was 99 and 9 out of 10 of the time she was correct. My grandmother gave me a great deal of that, but my dad and my mom, both were very hard workers. My dad owned a chrome plating company in San Francisco with his brother. He also had a second job where he worked for United Airlines. He did this for 32 years. He had two jobs and then my mom worked for the United States government. Both of them, with their work ethic and how they went and approached every day, some of that fell on me and my sister. That was part of my being able to get out there.
Fascinating. It’s you and your sister growing up then.
Yes.
That’s cool. I appreciate that story. Your grandma, although she didn’t talk a lot, what was her backstory? Where did she come from? Did she work? What was her story?
My grandmother was from Oklahoma. Back in her day when they burned down Oklahoma, Tulsa, and all of that, she was there for that. After that occurred, she moved out to Los Angeles, California where I was born. She was very instrumental in World War Two. She worked for McDonald Douglas doing the rivets on the airplane. I even have her tools back then. All of those tools were used when she worked on the airplanes back then. That work was a part of my background and my family.
Walking Into A Championship Team
That’s good. Hard work. Now let’s get to the fun stuff. We’ll do a little of this when we finish with our knowledge through the decades segment. When you arrive in Indianapolis, you know that you arrived on a championship team. I can’t imagine two better rookies ever coming on the Pacers. What was the attitude there when you were brand new? You’re walking into a championship team. What was your attitude? What were maybe some of the attitudes of the fellows that you were walking into?
For athletes, when you have veterans on the team and they have new rookies coming in, your veteran is always thinking, “This kid is coming in here. He wants my playing time. He’s going to try to take some of the money that I have coming.” They’re going to give you a hard time until they understand and figure out where you’re going to fit with the team.
George and I were coming. Both of us have different styles of plays. I like the defense, blocking shots, and doing that. Georgia has a more offensive structure. We both fit in pretty well with the franchise at that time and we’re able to solidify some of the weaker areas that the team may have had out there on the floor. When I got out there on the floor as a rookie, Bobbie Lenord didn’t realize how high I could jump. I love to block shots.
He put me in a ball game out there one night when Mel was out there on the floor. Going after this guy’s shot, I ran into Mel. Nobody was going to be able to block the guy shot. Mel told me after knocking him out of the way and neither one of us succeeded, “This paint, the three-second area. This is my office. This is my house. You need to stay away because when it comes in here, I got it. I’m going to run things.” I said, “Okay.”
A couple of plays later, another shot is going up. Mel goes up to block this guy’s shot and he doesn’t get it. I come up behind him and I still block the guy’s shot. Mel turns around and looks at me. It’s like, “You got it like that. Come on in here, rook. I need to teach you how to defend the paint.” I started working with him on how to defend the paint and Mel was highly successful in teaching me how to be able to defend the bigger centers. He called me out the best to defend those guys.
Was there a secret? Was it positioning? Was it feet? What was the lesson?
For me, it’s knowing how I could jump. I could stand flat footage and jump four inches over the square without a step. It gave me a step and a chance to move. There’s no telling how high I’m going to jump because, on my good day, I might put the rim right in the center of my chest and dunk the ball all the way up to my armpit.
Every day at practice, I kicked the bottom of the backboard and landed on my feet. On my best day, I kicked the rim with my foot and it was 10 feet high. I was able to bring my high jumping skills to the basketball court, but in order for me to be successful, I could not bang with these guys in terms of weight. I had to have that distance and it. If you gave me that distance and a step, I’ll turn around to take the shot. I had a chance to get to it.
My brother vividly remembers this and I’m sure you have to remember. We grew up with Billy Keller Sports Camp at Marion University. He would have you come in and talk before us and we’d go crazy. My brother said asked him. He said that they they put a quarter on top of the backboard and you ran jumped and knocked it off the top of the backboard. Is that true?
Not quite. In my rookie year, they put a $100 bill on top of the backboard and I put it in my pocket. The next year, Bobbie Slick Lenord starts the story that if you put a quarter on top of the backboard, I jump up, take the quarter down, and leave two dimes. That’s helicopter time there. That’s hanging around to get two dimes and a nickel on top of the backboard and take a quarter down.
They did put a $100 bill on top and you snagged it.
Put that in my pocket.
Who did that? Slick?
I don’t know who put that $100 bill up there but everybody was saying, “For $10 or $1,” and I kept telling them, “If you’re going to jump that high, you got to get paid.” Right now to this day because of all of that high jumping, I’ve got four herniated discs from all of that jumping and such. It’s been great. It was fun while it happened, but I’m starting to pay the piper a little bit now. I don’t jump whenever I’ve gone to do a camp now and kids are like, “Dr. Dunk, please give us a dunk.” I was like, “No because I’ll be on a crutch for the next two weeks and it keeps me off the golf course.”
You can’t do that. I know you want to play. I’m going to have to get you out for 18. I’m having too much fun with you today.
The other camp I used to go to, remember Taylor University?
Of course, yes.
I did a couple of camps up there. To get the kids’ attention you have to have a gimmick. I start my camp off with, “I want you guys to all watch this.” I’d run up and kick the bottom of the backboard and land on my feet. That’s crazy. All the kids’ mouths would fall open. I tell all the coaches, “You guys can go drink coffee or whatever it is you do. I’ve got them now for the next hour or so.” They all leave. They don’t leave out of one door and sneak back in the back door. You could hear them whisper, “Did you see what he did? He kicked the bottom of the backboard with his foot and landed on his feet. We need to hear what this guy’s going to tell these kids.”
That’s how I did my camp. In all the years of my doing that, I never take a snapshot. Two weeks ago, I got a text message from Mark Monteith. He had one of his followers found a snapshot of it and he sent that to me. It showed me kicking the bottom of the backboard. I’m ducking my head down, while I’m trying to get that leg up there to kick the bottom of that backboard and land on my feet. It was like all those years, I like to get that blown up and make that into a poster.
You have to post that on social media. People would love to see that.
I will send it to you and I’ll let you do your thing with it because I don’t know how to do that stuff.
The Attitude Of A Championship Basketball Team
We’ll put it in. Let’s talk about the attitude of a championship basketball team. First, I know what I want to ask you. Slick Lenord is a legend. I certainly had a ton of attitude and the good works he’s done are well known. When you think of Slick what was his attitude and what attitude lesson did he teach you?
Slick was the hard nose. His thing was you win and lose games at practice. You don’t win and lose games out there in the ballgame. When we went to practice, everybody was the same. It didn’t matter whether you were Roger Brown, Mel Daniels, or whoever the star was at that time. Everybody had to go through the same rule. What you respected about Slick was you’re having a bad time, maybe a couple of ball games that are real bad and the media is all over you.
Slick will not allow the media to beat you up. When you were having a tough time, he would talk to the media. Slick would not allow anybody from the outside to come and get us, but when it came time for us to toe the line, he would make us toe the line and he had his ways of doing it. When a ball game started, he didn’t want you out there shaking hands with the opponent before the jump ball and tip-off. He didn’t care for any of that. “Don’t be out there shaking their hands and going through all of that. That’s your enemy. You’re out there to beat them. You go out there and play hard.”
When the ball game is over, high-five them or whatever. He hated all of that. He hard knows he wanted to win but he wanted you to understand that every time you beat an opponent, how you left the court, you wanted to be in that opponent’s mind, so that the next time you face them again, they were thinking about the last time how badly you beat them. That worked for us. I saw a great deal.
Slick’s other thing was we were a team and a family. We did more things off the court together as well as we did on the court. We had to make appearances as a team. Everybody had to be there. Everybody had to be on time. If you were late, you got a fine for it. You got some extra workouts there on the basketball court. Being on time or being punctual was very important.
Slick stressed to us about being the ambassador of basketball for the state of Indiana. We had to conduct ourselves as gentlemen. We would get positive letters from all over the country about how we conducted ourselves during travel. That was very important. All of these things started to mold us together as a family to the point where you could tell when a guy came into the locker room to get ready for a ball game. “So and so is not feeling too good today. We’re going to have to take up the slack.”
If one of the starters or your star player is not feeling it, somebody else’s turn. We shared the basketball so that when Robert Brown, Mel, Freddie, or even George were out there if they were not having a great night, whoever had the hot hand, the ball went to that individual. You had those nights where you could shoot it in the ocean. You just couldn’t miss right and the players who are willing to go through you.
That’s so cool. Two questions. Number one, you mentioned the star player and you had a lot of them. I’m curious. This is from your perspective, who is the best Pacer, besides you, of course, who was on those teams? What did Pacer teach you the most about attitude in life?
The best Pacer on that team for me would be Roger Brown by far. I played with Roger every day after practice for two years, one-on-one. In those two years, I only beat him twice. Roger would be considered the top three forwards in the ABA during that time. My defense got strong and I could stop him, then the opponents were going to give me that much of a problem, depending on who the opponent was.
Some of the best one-on-one basketball that you want to see is Roger Brown going against Willie Wise. Willie Wise and I went to high school together in San Francisco. Willie Wise taught me how to dunk the basketball. When I met Willie Wise, knowing that I’d been playing against Roger, now I’ve got a chance of possibly stopping Willie. You’re never going to stop Willie Wise like you are never going to stop Roger Brown, but contain him a little bit. Don’t allow him to get that natural average that they normally get.
Gappers, if you heard what Darnell said, which I’m sure you did, how does this apply to your life? What Darnell taught us is that he always found someone better and he forced himself to compete against that better person. You are who you hang around and you are who you compete with. You become how you get from who you are to who you want to become. Find people who you want to become. Proximity is power and to be with them and competing against them. That will raise your standard. What a beautiful attitude lesson you gave there. That’s great.
Important Lessons Darnell Learned From Pacers
The second part of the question is what Pacer impacted your attitude the most that you played with that either shaped, impacted, or taught you an attitude lesson that meant everything to you.
My favorite Pacer is Billy Keller. Billy was always on time for any appearances. When Billy and I had to make an appearance, I knew I wasn’t going to have to wait. Let’s say an appearance starts at 11:00 and you had some of the other guys that were going to be there. You get a guy coming in 5 after or 10 after. The appearance would not begin until everybody got there. Now you’re eating up into your own personal time, waiting on your teammates.
Whenever Billy and I had to show up together, he was always on time. He loved to be engaged with the fans. Billy was talking all the time. He knew how to draw the fans in and I watched that and learned a great deal from that because I was a wallflower when I came here, face up against the wall all the time, but Billy showed me a little bit on how to do that. I carry it a little bit with me.
That’s wonderful. What a cool answer. He ended up coaching my sister for buffing. My dad became friends. That’s how he got buff coaching girls’ basketball. We all went to his camp and then Dad recruited him to coach. I was able to sell his house and we’ve stayed in touch with him, which is cool. Real quick, Dr. J, Dr. Dunk. Was Dr. Dunk before Dr. J, or was it simultaneous? Because he’s Dr. J.
Dr. J was before me. If I’m not mistaken Julius was at the University of Massachusetts. I believe that’s where they tagged him with that name. I had not met him. We tried out for the PanAm games at the Olympic Training Camp. That was the first time I saw Julius. I believe he had that name there. After our rookie years, starting here in the league, we were in New York playing the Nets. Julius was down in one end, throwing down these tremendous dunks, and I’m down on the other end doing the same thing.
During the ballgame, both of us had very good tremendous dunks throughout the game. When the game was over, the New York Press said, “Sorry, Dr. J, there’s a new doctor in the house. His name is Dr. Dunk.” That’s how I got the name. It came all the way from New York and followed me back here and it’s been with me ever since that.
Did you ever dunk on Dr. J? Did you ever get them like that?
We don’t dunk on each other all the time. At the PanAm training camp, this is the first time I’ve seen the guy. I jumped higher than Julius. He’d take off from the foul line. I’m standing on the foul line. He’s coming down in a fast break. All of a sudden, I see his hips go by my head and I’m thinking, “He’s already in the air.” I looked back and sure enough, he’s gliding all the way to the rim. He throws it down. I told him right then, “When this game is over and practice is over, you can come out here and show me how to do this because I know I can do this.” After three tries, I was taking off from the foul line myself. We had a lot of dunks all the time against one another. We’re very similar in style of play, height, body build, and such. I taught him how to do his afro.
You taught him how to do his afro. Tell me why did you get your afro so big? Was there a statement you made that it looked pretty? Is it just who you were? It was certainly a signature. People loved it. What was that all about?
That was about being in the Army. When you’re in the military, they make you wear that close crew cut and I hated that. When I came out of the service, there was a young lady by the name of Angela Davis, an activist. I saw her afro and afros were starting to come out during that time because of the movement around the country. I said, “That’s exactly what I’m doing right there. I love that hair.”
I started growing the afro. In my second year with the team, Slick called me in after practice and said, “I want you to get a haircut.” I’m like, “This is my statement. This is how I represent my culture and stuff.” I go to the barbershop and I had the barber barely knit the ends off just to even it up. I came into practice the next day and I packed it way down. I thought I had it nice and close and tight. Slick walks up to me and there’s a strand sticking out.
Champion: “This is my statement. This is how I represent my culture and stuff.”
He sees that strand and he grabs it. He started to pull and 13.5 inches later, we played basketball. He’s out there. He said, “That’ll cost you $300. If you don’t get it cut this time, I’ll suspend you indefinitely.” The haircut cost me $15. The fine cost me $300, which is a lot of money back then. He had me going back to the barber again the next night. I went to the barber and took it all off. He took it all down to how I wore it in the service.
I’m in the practice the next day. He’s like, “What are you doing? I didn’t want you to take it all off.” I’m like, “You got guys missed some free throws because their hair is too long in their face. You know for a fact that I’m combing my hair 7 to 9 times a day just to keep you from having me go through this because it was a while since it was very well maintained.” I looked at him and told him, “If you need to trade me, suspend me, or whatever it is, I’m not getting another haircut. I’ll pay for it to grow it out and get it the way I want.”
Julius came into town one day and took them over to the house. I got him a hair dryer like what the ladies use. At that time, they had those afro combs. Now, we’re not using that. You go and get what’s called an Angel Food cake cutter. Ask the ladies about it and they’ll tell you about it. I got one with a 6-inch tooth and another one with almost 7.5-inch tooth. I got the big one, turned that heat on the hair, and started pulling it on out. Once you get it out to the size that you want it. Go to the barber and have him even it up and shape it the way you want it.
The trademark was done there, and Slick didn’t give you any more shit about it.
Not about the hair. I had been down on the floor and it will all flow back. When I came to stop, it came right back into that afro shape there, That picture you showed of Angela, that’s what I was going for.
I like it.
I’ve done it before. It would all move and go back behind my head. That picture there, it would all move and go back behind my head, but when I stopped running it, it came right back into that ball.
That’s so good. Let’s go league-wide. The most fierce player you ever played against, whether it’s ABA or NBA. Who scared or intimidated you or had an attitude that you completely respected? Who comes to your mind when you think of that?
That picture you got right there. That’s Willie Wise.
That’s Willie Wise you’re dunking on?
Yes. He terrified me the most.
Did he?
He put me in foul trouble as a rookie. He kept me on the bench. He was very clever. Had not it been for me working against Roger, I probably wouldn’t have got to play against Willie very much because he’d had me fouled out in the first quarter.
You met him in San Francisco. You had known him for a minute.
Yeah, I had known him.
Has he had a big brother complex to you? Did you guys know each other in high school or his kids?
We met on the high school team at Balboa High School in San Francisco. Willie was a senior when I was a freshman. Willie was our starting center. He was only about 6’ 5” and I was probably 6’ 6” or 6’ 7” but a string bean but Willie had the ball game back then even in high school. Watching him and seeing how successful he was, it was an honor to make it to the league and then here it is, I’m coming up against one of my former teammates. I didn’t happen to play against him and watch him eat me alive. It was hard to take from time to time.
Knowledge Through The Decades With Darnell
I love it. We’re with Darnell Hillman, an NBA and ABA legend, and he has been dropping some fantastic bombs about hard work, embracing your competition, growing your attitude, and bridging the gap, just as he did throughout his life. We’re going to finish our interview with a little thing we do. It’s like a game called Knowledge Through the Decades. I want to walk through your life and I’m going to ask you. Hopefully, you can remember at each decade’s turn what the attitude lesson is that you got.
I know this was a minute ago, but do you remember being 10? Third or fourth grade. Sometimes it’s a teacher. You might remember your third or fourth-grade teacher. Do you remember the attitude lesson that young Darnell Hillman learned at 10 years old when you were in fourth or fifth grade?
I was living in San Francisco in the ghetto up in Hunters Point. I was taller than all of my teachers at that time and these teachers always at that time could have contact with your parents in terms of how you’re behaving or not and what you were doing in school. My mom ruled with an iron fist. I don’t want my mom to ever get a bad story on me because when I get home, she’ll tell you, “Go to your room and I’ll be in there in a minute,” and then “Wait till your father gets home.” It’s like, “Oh no, she’s going to tell Dad too.” Mom was the ruler of the house and was a stickler about discipline, structure, and the whole work there. I followed a great deal of what she said.
Fear would be the attitude lesson at 10.
Yes, at that time.
My guess would be at 20, if I heard you correctly, you were probably on your way into the Army. Do you remember where you were when you turned 20? What was the attitude lesson for you at 20 that you learned?
I don’t know if it was a lesson, but I’m on a bus here in Santa Rosa, California. We just got done with practice. Coach K is on the bus and he’s reading the newspaper. He said, “Darnell, you’ve been drafted.” I’m like, “What are you talking about? I’m already sitting here on the bus doing time for the man. He can’t draft me again.” The entire bus fell out laughing. He said, “No, you’ve been drafted by the ABA.”
What a great story.
That’s when I found out and I thought about ABA. When I was in Presidio, the Oakland Oaks was right across from us. I wasn’t following any of that at that time. I had very little knowledge about who the ABA was. I got a phone call from the Pacer’s office to have me come in and they presented me with a contract offer.
Do you remember how much that contract was?
My first contract I believe was right at $296,000. That’s not bad.
For that time, yeah. I had no idea because I didn’t know what any of the players got.
I bet you had some fun after you got that first check.
Yeah. I was able to buy my mom a car and buy myself a new car. I got married and went out here from California to Indiana. I had a real awakening to what the winner was about.
The bottom line is certainly we had a lot of people selling tickets but anybody listening to this that’s a Pacer fan, I’ll guarantee they bought those tickets. They were smart to invest in you because we wanted to see you dunk. That’s what it was all about for us. Let’s go to 30 years old. Do you remember being 30? Were you still playing? Was there an attitude lesson or an attitude moment when you were 30?
I was starting to wind down to the end of my career. I left here and went to the New York Nets, Denver Nuggets, Kansas City Kings, and Golden State Warriors, all within four years. I was looking at, “Let me get to year number 10 and I’m out of here.” The game was changing. I was no longer with my favorite teammates, Mel, Roger, and those guys there. Being moved around is like, “I’ll get 1 or 2 more years here and get on out of the game.”
I learned that towards the end of your career if you’re still not putting out the numbers that they want and like, you get that red slip in your locker. You go to your locker and there’s a red slip. You’re like, “Oh no. What do you mean? You’re letting me go. I’m thinking that I’ll retire at the end of this year but you guys want me out early?” That was an attitude I had to adjust to and be positive about because I wanted to play a little longer. They felt like I didn’t give them what they wanted. I was no longer willing to travel all over the country trying to just make it with the team.
Nobody wanted me. All right, it’s time to step on the way. I retired. I went to California. I was out there for about 13 or 14 years. I woke up one day and decided that I wanted a white Christmas and I knew exactly where to get it. I loaded up my van in 1995 and I came back here. I came into town on the day of the 500 race. Everybody was at the track. I came right into the town, unloaded my van in ‘95, and have been here since.
In the same house and all that.
No. It’s a different place and everything. I had a house while I played here. I sold that and moved out to California.
Let’s go to 40. You’ve been out of basketball for 10 years. Talk to me a little bit about your attitude at 40. As you think about it, talk to those people that have been displaced and they’re 10 years into their retirement. What’s the attitude lesson for them at 40?
Now, I’m working for the Pacers as director of camps and clinics and alumni relations. When I first came here, I came in as director of community relations, but I had no computer skills because of the size of my hands. The keyboards do not address my hands in a proper way. I became a spokesperson, going out, talking to the kids out in schools, talking to different teams, and keeping the retired players that we had in the area, keeping them involved in our community initiative.
That switched and changed how I approached things. Now it’s about learning about the state of Indiana and how they grow basketball here. The first time I drove into this place, every other driveway had a basketball hoop in it. I’m like, “Am I in America? Where is it that there’s a basketball hoop at every other driveway and then seeing the kids and how much history they know about the athletes?
I had never seen that in any other state in any other way. These kids understood and knew the history of the game. They could tell you what your stats were better than you could. At 40, now I’m starting to share and give back to some of these kids that I’m talking with, talking about their attitude, how they approach every day, and things that you need to work on. When I got to teach the camps to the kids, my Arm kicked back in for me.
I bet.
It’s like coming to boot camp when you come to my camp. These kids walk in and the first shot they take is that three point? I don’t care how big he is. How small he is, everybody is trying to take that three-point. I’m telling the kids, “You’re not going to be playing basketball here. You’re going to learn how to play basketball. We’re going to teach you how to play basketball here, five fundamentals, dribble, shoot, play defense, rebound, run the floor, and handle the ball.
Champion: You’re not going to be playing basketball here. You’re going to learn how to play basketball.
I had three rules. You come to my court, you got a T-shirt. Everybody had to look like a team, so all shirts had to be tucked in. These kids have these shorts that have pockets in them. They’re standing around with their hands in their pockets. I’d ask the kids, “Have you ever seen a pro player out there with his hands in his pocket? No. Those pants do not have pockets. Do not put your hands in your pockets while you’re in my practice because a loose ball comes over you, and hits you in the face, now you’re upset with whoever had passed out that ball or whatever the ball came from. Had your hands been free, you could have caught it.”
The last thing was sitting down on the floor here. Kids all want to sit like little Indians with crisscrossed legs. We’re going to sit like athletes. If any of those three rules are broken, I stop the entire practice. Everybody gets down into a push-up position. You stay there till I get tired and I’m not getting down there. Of course, you saw the kids with those arched backs. They had their butts up in the air or their hips down on the floor. I would tell them, “When everybody gets a flat back, you get a chance to get up.” Why do I teach them this rule?
One of the most important rules in any sport that you’re playing with is you’ve got to be able to communicate with your teammates. When one of those three things was broken, now they’re starting to run to each other. “Get your hands out of your pocket. He’s going to make us get down and push up. Uncross your legs. I don’t want to be doing any push-up or push-up position.” I didn’t make them do push-ups. They just stayed there at that flat back position. Those will build up the muscles and everything. Once they start doing that, they learn how to police themselves and communicate with each other, that’s the start of a team.
[bctt tweet=”One of the most important rules in any sport that you’re playing with is you’ve got to be able to communicate with your teammates.” via=”no”]
That is so cool. I can tell you lit up like a Christmas tree talking about that. I know you loved it.
I did because some of my coaches would not say anything wherever the kids were. I tell them, “This was the eye.” I’ll be looking all day long. I put an eye on them. If I call one, everybody goes down. “Come on coach, I know you guys are catching them.” I get a coach and say, “Coach, I got one down here.” I run down there, “Who we got? What’s he done? You come here and stand with me, young man.” Everybody else gets done in a push-up position. They’re all looking at who broke the rules. When he got back in with his teammates and stuff, they were going to watch him so don’t break the rules.
All right now. I’ll let you do 50 or 60, you can pick whichever decade. There you are with the kids right there, buddy. How fun is that? Did anything happen at 50 or 60 that you want to share with us attitude-wise?
At 54 was the last time I dunked the basketball. When Mel was alive, we’d go out once a year, walk into the practice court, grab the ball, jump up two hands, and dunk it. I went up at that age and tried to do that two-hand dunk and that ball. I thought Artis Gilmore caught my dunk and threw me out of bounds He threw me right back on the floor. I said, “The elevator is not going to that floor anymore. It stopped going up there.”
How old are you?
75.
You’re doing well, buddy. Do you remember turning 70? What was your thoughts, your attitude, or your mind process when you hit 70?
At 40, that upward climb of the airplane? I threw the plane off a little bit. Even now. By the time I hit 70, is that a flat plane and it has only one direction to go. That’s going to be going down. It’s been a challenge. I’ve been blessed with being able to take care of myself because I look at some of my former teammates and the things that they’re struggling with health-wise. I know I’ve been blessed to be able to still perform at this age.
I love it. We’re with Darnell Hillman, a former NBA legend. He is also on the board of directors for Lana Sports. If you guys have been listening to our podcast, Lana Sports is one of the benefactors of the Dropping Dimes Foundation, helping ABA players, there are 141 of them left, with the finances of living, of health, and of helping the folks that you’ve talked about.
Darnell, it’s so cool that you are doing that for your people. We’re going to go ahead and wrap this up. We have listeners all over the world. We have listeners right now who are maybe depressed, maybe they’re down, maybe they’re in a broken-down car, maybe they’re walking on a beach. We always want our guests, and you’ve been so good, Darnell.
Message Of Hope: Be Prepared For Opportunities
You’ve given us so many bombs, so many truths, and so many things to think about for our listeners or our Gapers to reflect upon themselves to help them bridge the gap from who they are to who they want to become. What we always want to do is give you one last message of hope for the people who are listening to you today. What is your message of hope for those who need it today?
Can you hear that? It’s knock on wood. Chance favors a prepared mind. If you’re prepared when the knock of opportunity comes, you’re the chosen one. You get to step through the door and continue on. Of course, there’s always a list of people being selected from. When that one person is pulled out, those that are left behind are their attitude. “I’m better than this. I should have been the one doing this and that.”
It’s like, “You weren’t quite prepared because you didn’t get to knock.” Once you change that attitude, when the knock comes, you get a chance to walk through the door and if the knock doesn’t come, what are you going to do to improve and better yourself so you get a shot at the opportunity when that knocks on your door.
I love it. Chance favors the prepared mind. I haven’t heard that one. That is so awesome. Darnell Hillman, you are fantastic. Thank you for giving to us. Thank you for giving to our audience. I’m ready to go out, play some hoop, and take on the world, Darnell Hillman, thank you so much for being on the Get Attitude Podcast.
It’s been a pleasure. Thanks for having me.
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